461 project

[ManicMechanic69]

Well I picked up my 461 today, sticker shock and all, $2155.00 parts and labor! Had to turn the crank .010 ,.010 under to fix it. New rings, bearings, checked the rods for straightness, hot tank the block, you know, the full meal deal. He also went through the heads again to freshen them up for me so basically we're brand new again.
I also bought a new radiator as many folks felt that was most likely the cause of my overheating issue.
And then to take care of my horrible 60 foot times at the track we sent my Continental Converter back to have it reworked into a 3000 stall. That 'otta do it!
JP is coming over tomorrow to help install the mill so I hope to have it running tomorrow night! I already have most of the engine accessories assembled. Just have to stuff it in the hole and hook it up. Cross your fingers!!!
Manic

[G6T8O]

Fingers are crossed...GoodLuck!!

[ManicMechanic69]

Here's something to note...
ARP flex plate bolts do NOT work with Eagle Cranks! Had the engine ready to go in when JP decided I really needed to torque my flex plate, but the factory bolts were inadequate, sooo, off to Jim Greens I go, just to later find out that I do not own a 3/4" 12 point socket to install said new bolts.... 'nother trip out...we get them lubed up and in place just to find out that there is insufficient clearance between the bolt heads and the crank flange for the socket to fit! OUCH!
Well the engine is in but not yet running as I ran out of poop. JP spent a couple hours taping off and repainting the block so it does look fabulous, but start up will have to wait for tomorrow.
Manic

[LFSADRG]

Cool project.

The ARP's fit fine on my Eagle crank with a TCI flexplate.

[ManicMechanic69]

Someone has suggested that J.G.'s might have sold me a set of "flywheel" bolts instead of the required flexplate bolts. I going up there tomorrow to find out.
On a lighter note, I got the engine no start problem cured with a set of $25 points. Yanked out the junk Pertronix kit, put a set of good 'ol points in, and she fired right up!
So the long term cure has been ordered in the form of a new MSD Pro Billet distributor and a BOP composite drive gear. Should have everything installed in time for the All Pontiac Show & Shine Sunday. With a little help from Mike of course...
Manic

[ManicMechanic69]

Well thanks to a new MSD Pro Billet Distributor and a real big thanks to Mike the LeMans runs and breaths again! At first it was same 'ol same 'ol... no spark! A quick test or two and we quickly isolated the problem as a malfunctioning MSD Spark Retard box. UGH! More money... A two wire swap out and the engine fired right up. After quit a bit of tunning Mike had her purri... roaring like she should! LOL
Jetted the carb up 3 more sizes and it seemed to love that as well as some more fuel pressure. Engine seems to be running well within acceptable limits on the temp sides at long idle, but I'll drive it out tomorrow for a real test of all the new components put together.
see ya then,
Manic

[ManicMechanic69]

How do explain catastrophic engine failure at 30 miles w/o the use of profanity?
Manic

[Unknown_Authority]

That aint right. Rod knock? spun bearing? I feel your pain. Catastrophic sounds bad...

[ManicMechanic69]

Rods are a knocking.... LOUD! OP is fluctuating badly between 55-60psi. It was 70psi and constant a second before that... tells me at least one bearing spun.
Anyone want to buy a LeMans????????? Only slightly cursed!
Manic

[REED_RACING]

Manic, have you thought about a SD motor?

[THOR]

Shoot, this sucks :eek: Sorry to hear about this
Profanity is OK here
Getting SD Performance involved might be a good idea
Let us know what you find out

[66GTOLVR]

I am scheduled to pick up SD motor next week. Can't wait to get it installed in the Tiger.

[G6T8O]

Who built this motor??

[ManicMechanic69]

Figured I couldn't go to far wrong with a Jim Butler Engine....don't know now

[ManicMechanic69]

The last build was a machinist I use up in Everett, and of course he's on vacation for 3 weeks...

[THOR]

On the hurt motor, Did you use a Butler rotating assembly and have the Everett people do block prep, machining and assembly ?

[ManicMechanic69]

Yup, its the same rotating assembly that Blake originally built for me, then I lost that hydrolic flat tappet cam and went to the roller cam, then the O/H problem most recently in which we found several things wrong internally.
I really think he must have left a rod cap loose or something bad like that for to go South that fast.... I mean 10-15 miles around town and then 10 miles down the freeway till KA-Blamy time???? Go figure!?

[Niessen]

Rods are a knocking.... LOUD!Friend had something similar happen to his boat motor. Built right, but the Fram filter came apart.

[HOTROD64-STOCK69]

I had a customer that had a Fram oil filter fail recently also

[ManicMechanic69]

So I Prayed like Hell all weekend, got rained on at my car show, said "What the heck, we're all having fun!", then I promptly won a $600.00 LoJack Security System for my car! Yea Ha! And a new buffer!
Then I find out that Texas DSHS is taking my x to the cleaners for the years of back support she is delinquent on, and is willing to collect for me all medical bills that aren't covered and she won't pay her part of. YEEAA HAA!!
So then today at 7 PM I just happened to find a replacement engine for the LeMans (hee hee!) Here is a pic....(Snicker..) and Look there's a wheel or 4 attached!!!!!!
MANIC'LY out of my mind!

[HOTROD64-STOCK69]

Let me be the first to tell you congrats on the '04. I am looking forward to seeing her!!! Now you can just play with the Le mans and get you fix in the '04. lol
Mike

[ManicMechanic69]

Ok so you figured that one out all by your self? All it took was just ONE pic of the mill... Guess I'm easy... LOL
So I need a couple of little things checked and the battery replaced, who uses which dealers for service on their 04-06 models?
Manic
PS oh, here's the car!

[G6T8O]

It didnt hurt that he has an 04!!!

[HOTROD64-STOCK69]

Ok so you figured that one out all by your self? All it took was just ONE pic of the mill... Guess I'm easy... LOL
So I need a couple of little things checked and the battery replaced, who uses which dealers for service on their 04-06 models?
Manic
PS oh, here's the car!

I'll send a PM later tonite or just give me a call. I have a scanner and have educated myself a bit about the '04, maybe I can help. Mike

[ManicMechanic69]

OK, Here it is. The damage report. Fresh out the machinist mouth. Pictures too!
#7 rod bearing is GONE! Started to take out #8 also. I shut it off quick enough to save everything else. Looks most likely to be oil failure. Crank is true, rods are straight, main line is true, oil pump is a stock 455 unit, so basically everything mechanically is ok, yet EVERY rod bearing is showing copper. Looks like dirt went through, but w/o a trace of dirt or contamination. So back to oil failure. So at this point you all are asking what oil is you running Manic? Well, Delo 400 15w-40 I say, and a NAPA Gold filter! Should be good as gold one would think..........
Any ideas? Anybody?
Manic
OH, and don't forget when looking at the pics, there's only 30 miles on the mill... max

[Unknown_Authority]

I guess some questions are in order. Are those ARP rod bolts? Were they torqued to the correct 62 foot LBS? How many times have they been torqued to 62 foot LBS? They do stretch and may not have had the correct holding power. That might make the bearing spin and then destroy itself. Was the rod positioned correctly on the piston? I.E. not backwards? Was the cap mounted correctly, not backwards. That might do it too. Can you take a pipe cleaner and ram it through the hole in the number 7-8 rod journal? Any crap in there? Is the rear oil galley plug in the block? Is your oil pump pickup tube loose? I welded mine to make sure it stayed tight. What assembly lube did the guy use. Just tossing out ideas that might cause a failure. I don't buy the oil breakdown theory. There's a reason it's not getting oil. Maybe a bad job of keeping things clean when putting it together has doomed it to fail. I run straight Valvoline 30wt and a purolator filter. No problems so far. Since I live pretty close to you brent, maybe I can come over and check it out.

[ManicMechanic69]

I think new rod bolts ARE in order as this will make it 4 times apart! As far as assembly lube, 'dunno, I'll suggest he weld the pick up for me, thanks for that idea. We were running Delo 400 and they have recently reformulated it so I not very confident in it. Gonna switch to Valvoline Racing. Plus we're adding an idiot light back into the loop in case the OP is dropping off under hard accel.
Beyond that I am also intending to have him break the mill in on his dyno, as I video it for a possible sale. I'm REALLY sick of this crap. I think I may just stuff a stocker 400 in the Le Mans and sell it so I can restore my 73 TA.
Is that Manic enough for YA?
Manic

[sixt8bird]

I think new rod bolts ARE in order as this will make it 4 times apart! As far as assembly lube, 'dunno, I'll suggest he weld the pick up for me, thanks for that idea. We were running Delo 400 and they have recently reformulated it so I not very confident in it. Gonna switch to Valvoline Racing. Plus we're adding an idiot light back into the loop in case the OP is dropping off under hard accel.
Beyond that I am also intending to have him break the mill in on his dyno, as I video it for a possible sale. I'm REALLY sick of this crap. I think I may just stuff a stocker 400 in the Le Mans and sell it so I can restore my 73 TA.
Is that Manic enough for YA?
Manic
Dont forget what I said about the oil pump drive shaft maybe being to tight(long) and taking out the pump. Which in turn , bye bye bearings. You did just put in a new distributor.

[ManicMechanic69]

Steve,
we took apart the oil pump, and checked the base plate for pressure damage that would be present if there was insufficient clearance for the rod and the plate was good as new. No sign of wear on the shaft either.
Thanks for the idea though.
Here's a silly question; if the rear galley plug was out, wouldn't there be drastic OP problems? This thing has 70 psi strong... till the bearing went that is...

Manic

[HOTROD64-STOCK69]

Your bearings look as if the oil was dumping out of the gallery before it could be directed toward the mains and rods. that would direct you to the oil galleries that supply the crankshaft. That would be the drivers side (left) of the block. This gallery feeds the crank, rods, camshaft bearings, all lifters. It has a plug in the front of the block(thus plug is a press in type and should be changed to a thread in type). It also has a plug at the back of the block(tap and thread this one too).
The right side gallery is fed from the forward end of the left gallery. It then heads towards the back of the engine lubricating each rightside lifter bore as it goes by. It terminates inside the block and has a threaded hole for a pipe plug at the end.
The bearing damage appears to be related either to restricked flow or lack of volume from internal pressure loss, which is my guess. Check to see that the gallery plug inside the rightside of the block forward of the distributer hole is in place. While you have it out and apart you might as well tap for oil restricters in the lifter bores. No reason to feed 5/16 of oil to each lifter when it can be directed to the mains and rods(plus the hole in the lifter is about .062 . I use them in my race and street engines with much success and no lack of oil to rocker issues. Hope this helps
Mike

[G6T8O]

Now thats got to be at least 25 cents worth....
LOL

[ManicMechanic69]

Well the block is fully apart and going in the the hot tank again and ALL the galley plugs were present and accounted for. Plus if one was missing, you'd have a pressure drop off to probably 5 psi at idle and I had 70 till the bearing went bad and then I still had 55 psi. So I can't believe that is the cause here.
Still baffled,
Manic

[HOTROD64-STOCK69]

Since the you have accounted for all the plugs I would suggest looking at the lifter bore to lifter relationship. It may be as simple as the wrong lifters. Before you clean the block you should tap the lifter feed holes 10-28 and install restricters into each bore.

[ManicMechanic69]

Well after much inspection, waving of the micrometers, threading of welding rod to see clear oil galleys, I have decided to order up a NEW Eagle crank. Of course, I cannot use a Poncho because the Butler stroker kit uses chevy long rods which have a different journal diameter. How they had this thing built I do not know!!
If you're interested I suggest you call Jim Bulter and ask, I couldn't understnad the quick talking southern accent when I asked what type of crank it was pattered after...(note:I wasn't talking to Jim),
Anyway, once we have the crank and the engine is built, we plan on doing the break in on the engine dyno, then pulling the pan to inspect a couple of bearings for wear patterns to see if we've licked this thing!
I think I'll be needing the Reverend at that point, "Everyone, Let us pray..." LOL

[REED_RACING]

Change the oil and cut open the oil filter also.

[LFSADRG]

I have the same Butler setup as you. Already went through one Eagle crank due to the thrust going out on it. I miss my 400 w/QJet, flat tappet cam, stock rods and crank. So simple and it worked well.

Let me know where the engine dyno place is at. I wouldnt mind getting my 467 ran on the dyno to get it broken in and tuned after it is done.

[ManicMechanic69]

Well, I took your advise! My 'New' Eagle crank shaft showed up last Tuesday and I delivered it up to Dave so he could dive in at his convenience. Hopefully that doesn't mean next month...
Manic

[ManicMechanic69]

Well the engine is built.... again! Now all we need is a used poncho flywheel for less than $100.00, from some nice club member, like you maybe, or YOU? Any way we need a used flywheel for the dyno so we can break in the engine and do a partial teardown to check it out for bearing wear.
And an interesting side note came up this week however, a high end shop in Everett called my machinist last week for help with a mysterious bearing failure on a Pontiac 455, seems No.7 & 8 rods were out of it and all the mains and rods looked like crap had gone through the bearings and at very low miles with great oil pressure.... Sound familiar? When he asked what type of oil the guy was running, the golden answer was.... Delo 400 15w-30. To close for comfort, Dave said when he inspected the 455 parts they looked identical to mine at the time of failure. So I guess it very well may have been oil failure and nothing more, I do know I am switching to Valvoline 20w-50 Racing from now on.
Manic

[ManicMechanic69]

My Machinist called today with some great numbers, 490 ft lbs of torque at 5600 rpm and 435 horses on the engine dyno!
I am going to pick it up Monday an hopefully put it back together next week if the weather holds. Those numbers along with my new 3k stall converter should make for a real fun package... again!
Manic

[HOTROD64-STOCK69]

Glad to hear that Brent.
I am going on the dyno tommorrow at 9 am with the '04 to see how much RWHP and RWTQ. I put headers, hi flow cats, Magna-flow X 2.5" Stainless exhaust system, K&N CAI, 80mm TB, ported and polished. Tune as needed. If I have time afterwards I have springs to install for 1" frt drop and .8" rear drop. Wish me luck buddy.

[ManicMechanic69]

Well, my new 10" Continental torque converter showed up last week and we got it installed right away. Drove the car for the first time yesterday and it feels pretty tight. Shifts are real positive. Runs good. Great Oil Pressure, trans temp is good, all looks green for now!
Only funky thing to happen was when I went over a speed bump up at Costco on Aurora the engine died instantly and wouldn't start for a couple of minutes. Scratching my head on that one...
All that is left to do now is to rewire the NOS and the MSD Retard Box and I'm done!
Anyway, all looks ok for Tiger Run for me this year!
Thanks for all the input over this rebuild guys,
Manic

[Brandon]

Right-on Brent!

Do you think that speed-bump issue was from a loose electrical connection?

[HOTROD64-STOCK69]

Right-on Brent!

Do you think that speed-bump issue was from a loose electrical connection?

Ya think? lol

[Brandon]

... figgered it was that or a misaligned flux capacitor :)

[G6T8O]

Good one!