How to Blow Up Your New 468 - very long

[GPModJ]

Well, I haven't said anything about my engine since much earlier this year and there's a sad story behind that fact. But it has a happy ending.

Back in late April, I'd just put together my 468 with parts chosen by and purchased from Dave at SD Performance. With the advice of Dave and a friend who's been a mechanic for almost 30 years (and who owned the GP for about 20 of those), I assembled the engine.

I did the break-in run, changed the oil and everything was okay. Discovered a leak in the remote oil filter setup I'd installed because the headers interfered with the stock setup. I thought it was the O-ring between the stock adapter on the block and the new screw-on cap that has the two holes for the oil lines. So, I bought a new viton O-ring thinking heat from the header might be melting or just softening the one that came with the kit. It still leaked oil.

So, I took the stock adapter off the block and *really* screwed the adapter cap on. I also made sure I'd screwed the hoses into the adapter cap.

I did a really good job of screwing the hoses in tight because when I ran the engine again it still leaked but this time from a new source--the crack in the adapter cap I'd made when I screwed the hoses in.

I figured I'd fix that by ordering one of those billet adapters Spots Performance makes. The Spotts adapter is a nice piece (hard to go wrong when it's solid aluminum, over one inch thick). After waiting for a week for delivery, I installed the adapter, screwed in the hoses, fired it up and took it for a drive.

About a block down the road, I heard a squeal. It sounded like the power steering belt but I'd tightened it. I thought it might be the power steering belt still so I stopped to take a look at the power steering fluid level. It looked a little low so I ran up to a gas station about four blocks from my place.

On the way, the car started to run a bit rough and when I got to the gas station I just died when I stopped. Seeing as I hadn't re-adjusted the carb & timing, I thought maybe that was the cause.

However, the car didn't start very easily and on the way back home, it died. It was hard to start but I was only a block away from home so I returned.

At home, I tried letting it cool down and tried starting it again. It wouldn't turn over very easily and wouldn't run. I could still turn it over by hand so I didn't think there was anything necessarily wrong with it.

I decided to change the oil and see if there was anything wrong there. There was. First thing out of the oil plug was antifreeze. And the oil drain plug had lots of debris on it.

Out the engine came. What I found wasn't pretty. *Lots* of metal and bearings coming out from between the rods. When I tore it apart *all* the bearings were fried, except for the rear main. One piston was toast, along with the pin and bushing for the same piston. Molten bearing had splashed on the number five piston as it traveled up the cylinder.

So, what caused the problem? I'm still not 100% sure but I hate to admit what is the most likely cause. I may have gotten the two oil adapter hoses backward. I swear I quintuple checked to make sure they were on the right way. But after going through all the oil galleys, all the galleys in the crank, and every other possible cause I couldn't find another problem.

What's more, it appeared that the antifreeze in the crankcase wasn't related to the oiling problem. So I had two problems to solve.

It *appeared* that the antifreeze in the crankcase might have been caused by a head gasket leak. I was pretty careful putting the heads on but the heads kinda looked as though there might have been one.

So, after align honing, resizing the rods, grinding the crank 10 thou', magnafluxing the block again (to make sure there wasn't a new crack in the block), buying two new pistons (you can't buy just one from Ross but Dave helped by taking two of 'em, as you gotta buy 4), a new piston bushing and pin, new rod bolts (why take the chance), a new gasket set, new rings, et cetera, I reassembled my 468.

But this time I primed the engine on the engine stand with the filter setup hooked up and the pan off--so I could see where the oil was going. This time I could see oil going everywhere--and plenty of it.

So, I fire it up again and run it for the prescribed 20 minutes or so. Everything looked great. I changed the oil and ran it around the block. Still good. I checked the oil and it looked fine.

So, after having the new exhaust sytem installed, I drove the car up to Ladysmith for a Show 'n Shine. It ran fine there and back.

I was going to run it over to Abbotsford for Dave to have a look at but before I went I decided to change the oil. Antifreeze in the oil. I lay under the car for 15 minutes without moving. I came pretty close to losing it but decided to just walk away for awhile.

In talking with the guy who had the car before me (my buddy, the mechanic), he told me the most common cause of antifreeze in the crankcase is the timing cover. I didn't really think it could be the cover but decided to try anyway. It beat taking the heads off or taking the engine back out.

Well, took the cover off and got one off the original 428 from the car. Turns out it was in almost brand new shape. In it went and away I went running the car.

I popped the oil drain plug off after driving it for about 20 miles or so and at first didn't see any antifreeze. After taking a really close look, I found a few flecks. I thought that might still be residue from earlier so I took it this weekend to Chemainus for another Show 'n Shine.

Finally!!! Joy!!! No antifreeze in the crankcase and it's still running okay. I d*mn near wet myself I was so excited.

The lesson for today--take your engine to Dave to build. It'll be cheaper than doing it yourself.

I'm someone who likes to work on stuff myself though. So, I'm not sure I'm cured. But I am paying for my education.

BTW, anyone want me to post pictures of some of the carnage?

[LonnieS]

Post away GP! Gotta add some visual aid to such a well documented tale! ;D

[Pontiacshack]

Thanks for that, it reminds me why I had Dave do the assembly work in the first place. Not only does he know what the set up is for the application, but he puts together a really sound package. My engine gets faster every time I get it out. I figure by this time next year, I should be running in the 8's if it keeps on schedule. ::) Hey, it sounded good, right? Glad to hear it's all good.

[GPModJ]

Hi Lonnie:

I'll post some pics today--rod & main bearings, fried piston, et cetera.

Hey, Shack:

Dave was very supportive throughout the whole ordeal. He tried his best to get me parts as quickly as he could and, as mentioned in my original message, took two of the Ross pistons to save me some money.

That being said, it took from late April 'till the middle of this month to get everything together--between the parts and machining everything.

[GPModJ]

Okay, here's a pic with some of the bearings, the piston, and the pin. If anyone wants a larger shot, let me know, as the original is about 2048 by 1564 pixels or so (@ 180 dpi).

The stuff has been sitting around for a while and so there's some dirt on the pieces but the gunk you see on the thrust bearing is what was there when I pulled it out of the engine.

[G6T8O]

What no Slick 50 ?? ::) ::)

Bill P. 8)

[G6T8O]

Hey GP....
On the serious side, that was a tough row to hoe but i'm glad your doing well in the school of hard knocks..I'm sure Alot of us have some similar stories, some more expensive some less. Glad you made it through without going postal!! with your well documented experience you may have elevated your self to Asst. teacher!! :D
Congrats on a job finally well done....

Bill P. 8)

[GPModJ]

Thanks Bill.

It could have been much worse, though it was bad enough as it was.

I read this morning on the PY forums of a guy who'd been in a dyno shop when they exploded an engine on the dyno by trying to run the engine without the pan on. :o I also read about the experiences of one of the most reputable people on the PY forums a while back (while I was in the middle of this 468 stuff) and it made things a bit more easy for me to stomach.

Kerry

[GPModJ]

Here's an afterthought on my experience. Dave Bisschop will tell you the best place to get your oil pressure readings is from the plug next to the distributor. In my mind, that's very good advice.

Why? Because my oil pressure looked great--even while my rod bearings were melting and my number three main bearing was spinning due to a complete failure to get oil where it needed to go.

[THOR]

HI GP,
Man, what an ordeal you went through. Some folks would have died from the stress of something like this.
Whatabummer :(

[rrddcc57]

Be careful! If anti-freeze has been pumped through your bearings, even for a short time you may have a pre-mature failure even though you are not having trouble now. Change your oil often and cut your oil filters open and examine the contents for bearing flakes.

Every time I've taken this chance the engine has failed.
Good Luck

[GPModJ]

Dave Bisschop is that you?

Thanks for the advice. Dave Bisschop told me the exact same thing--about the engine failures. I plan on paying close attention to what's going on in the crankcase. I've cut the filters apart after the last four oil changes already and the engine's only had 200 miles on it. Mind you, two of those changes were prompted by the antifreeze problem.

I'm not planning to put a lot of miles on the car over the next while and either over the winter or early this spring, the engine's coming out and the pan will come off. I'll check the bearings and, if something's amiss, it'll get attention.

Also, who knows. I may do tear it apart sooner. Right now I'm not wanting to take it back out partly because I've already had it out for most of the summer. But the antifreeze problem nags at me. I don't want to nuke the engine again.

[GPModJ]

Here's an update. I've pulled the engine to inspect it and there appears to be no damage from the antifreeze. I still have to take the crankshaft out but the main bearings appear to be fine and there is no apparent damage anywhere.

I had a major scare though. I had the car in to have the transmission worked on and when I started it up to take it back home, there was a squeal--very similar to the one that preceded the last engine failure. However, again I thought it was a belt or something like that. I don't think the squeal could be related to the transmission work, as all I had done is a shift kit installation.

I got it home, tightened the belts but the squeal didn't go away. In fact, it would persist. I moped around for a couple of hours before deciding to take the belts off and run it again to see for sure.

Well, it didn't squeal like before but there was a very short squeal just on startup. Of course, panic set in. I figured it had cooled down and wasn't squealing like before because clearances weren't as tight.

After the panic I decided to just pull the engine like I'd been advised by Dave and "rrddcc57" posted on this thread.

So, the engine's out and so far, so good. I'd just like to find the source of that squeal before I put it back together. It's not the rear main. As far as I know only the rope seals will squeal and the BOP seal I have looks in good shape.

It's not the distributor, as it spins freely and doesn't seem to make any noise. Also, there's plenty of oil getting to the distributor gear.

If anyone's got any thoughts, let me know.

[69projects]

Kerry, is this posted for me? :shock: I'll have to reconsider my position on the 428 rebuild. I was going to go meet Dave @ SD soon anyway - I guess it'll be sooner than later.

[GPModJ]

Well, unless you really like to work on stuff yourself, get Dave to do it for you. Dave will deliver an engine that will run right and strong. You won't end up having to pay money to replace parts that fail. As I said earlier in this thread, you could end up saving yourself money if you get Dave to build it for you.

[GPModJ]

Here's an update. Tore the engine down over the last week and checked all the bearings--nothing wrong. There's a bit more wear on the thrust bearing than I'd like to see but it's not excessive. :D

Whew! I'm glad I checked but I sure don't want to take that thing out again any time soon. :roll:

Didn't really find out what was causing the squeal but it's gone now that it's back together and running.

[69projects]

Good news for sure Kerry! I'm sure that you've had enough grief.

[GPModJ]

I'll say. While I didn't find anything wrong, I was reluctant to start it up for fear of hearing / seeing something I didn't want to see.