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uglypants
01-26-2003, 01:40 PM
Figured since I have been reading posts here for a few weeks now and enjoying the topics that I should register and say HI!
I have been a GTO fan my whole life,being brought up around them ( long story ) and always dreaming of owning my own . I am at a point in my life that now is the time to make it happen and in doing research found this site and club . Needless to say I mailed my application on Sat. and am looking forward to the next chapter in my GTO journey.
If anybody was curious,I currently do not have any projects to tinker with ( another Boeing casulty) but hopefully soon that will change!
Thanks for your time,
Mike

Icelander
01-26-2003, 01:57 PM
Welcome Mike from another newbie!
;D

These guys are the greatest! Just walked right into a meeting and sat down next to the club president while he was talking and found myself a whole collection of friends! Look forward to meeting you at the next meeting!

Kendall Whitlatch

LonnieS
01-26-2003, 02:09 PM
Hello Mike! I'm glad to see you have joined us. It's great to get some new perspective here. There's been a lot of great advice, great sales, and great plans made here on this forum. The 80+ Legends Forum members will no doubt help you in any way they can.

Talk to you soon, and thanks for being a part of all this.

-Lonnie

uglypants
01-26-2003, 02:21 PM
Kendall , Lonnie thanks for the welcome! ;D

I was just strollin' thru some pictures of Kendall's '67 ( I gots a soft spot for '67s) and was impressed with how fast other members were ready to help him out! I am looking forward to meeting all the other members at the next meeting!

The LeMans is lookin good, Kendall!

Thanks again guys,
Mike

theJUDGE
01-26-2003, 03:20 PM
Hi Mike & welcome to the club!
I was going to ask what year GTO you are looking for but, I see that you like the 67, which is a fine choice!
I love the 67 as well, I rode shotgun in Mitch Bleitz' 67 last night & after looking out at that hood & fenders, a guy's gotta have one! ;D
What's up with the ugly pants? ;)
Talk to you soon, looking forward to meeting you!

theJUDGE
01-26-2003, 03:24 PM
My god Lonnie would ya look at that - I've got 300 posts now.
Does that give me another gold star, or perhaps the prize on the back of the cereal box?
What comes after Legends Forum God cause I'm there. ::)

uglypants
01-26-2003, 04:13 PM
it's always just a matter of time before someone asks me about my uglypants! ;D

My wife commented on my attire one day after working on the house and I thought it would be a good log on name...plus Nobody usually forgets it or wants to use it.I have had it for a while now so its kinda habit using it.

As far as what I'm looking for, I would prefer a "66 or "67 but anything between 64 and 67 is all right in my book! Thanks for keepin an eye out!
Mike

Pontiacshack
01-26-2003, 05:57 PM
Hey Mark, I believe 300 posts gets your picture on the cover of a WHEATIES box. YOU DA MAN! Good to have another member, welcome Mike.

LonnieS
01-26-2003, 07:27 PM
Don't worry Mark - you're gonna L O V E what's comin' up in the new forum.

I'm glad you asked about the 300 Posts, cuz you are going to stand out like a sore thumb for your most awesome contribution on this humble message board. It's a surprise - shouldn't be long now - 'been hard at work.

Mike - don't worry about the ugly pants - I gots lots 'a ugly shirts to go with 'em. ;D

Lonnie

GTO_AL
01-26-2003, 07:38 PM
Man, another The Great One enthusiest ;D
Welcome Mike! I too enjoy the '67's as it seems, which is a good thing since I have two '67 converts :D
I also have a '66 HT that I just picked up too. You better hurry up and get one before I take them all LOL. Just kidding. Great to see another 'enthusiest on board. I'm always on the "prowl" for GTOs I'll keep you in mind. Oh, ya, my wife says one of mine has to go, not sure which one though. I'm going to start calling them IRA 1,2,and 3. Perhaps my wife will think they're our retirement plan and we'll see if they grow ;D But I'm outa space so I guess I can't get any more LOL.

Mark, with 301 post, wow, you're not only "DaMan", but you DaMan wit da short stubby fingers from all dat typin!
Keep it up.

LonnieS
01-26-2003, 07:46 PM
Speakin' yet again of '67's - Mike, I've just updated the Pic O' Da Week (http://www.northwestlegends.com/home.shtml) with members Pat & Irene Bertucci's nice '67.

Lookin' good Bertucci's !! ;D ;D ;D

uglypants
01-27-2003, 01:33 AM
Mornin' guys!

Thanks for keeping an eye :o out for me Al , I appreciate it! I thnk I have seen all the pics of your cars on this site..I like 'em all! I am really diggin that "66 you just picked up..man what luck! I have looked off and on since I was out of high school and have found nothing close to that! I'll just keep looking and waiting..the right one will come along.(I've waited this long already)I figure I can get my GTO fix by drooling over your guys' cars(Ill wipe it up) and it will make my wife happy since she has been hearing about me owning a goat for some 12 years now !
I did see the '67 on the front page Lonnie , good choice!
Thanks again for the welcomes..I am already feeling at home!
Mike

1PROGTO
01-27-2003, 02:37 AM
Another welcome from a fellow '67 owner. I found some old pics of my car from the early days..........oh well my early days anyway.

Here we go this is my '67 back in around 1978 when the guy I bought from owned and was getting ready for his Edmonds High School Sr. year. At this point the stripes are starting to appear (a la 70's style). Looks like he could only afford the rear mags and tires too. Mark & Mitch check out those hubcaps in front; Yep those are the stockers we were joking about Saturday night. Just think I was only 3 years from owning this machine at this point. (I was 13 then). ;)

1PROGTO
01-27-2003, 02:41 AM
OK fast forward to the Spring of 1981. Here it is in it's cruising heyday.... stripes, wide tires, mags, the whole nine. I was only 6 months from owning this car! This shot was taken down in Edmonds near the Ferry. I never figured out why he chose to remove the GTO emblems and put the GTO "prism" decals instead. That was the first thing I changed.

1PROGTO
01-27-2003, 02:48 AM
Just 3 months after I turned 16, I was able to purchase the "67 GOAT". $1800 and it was all mine. This made the drive to High School much cooler. This shot was taken the summer between my Jr. & Sr. Year (Summer of '82) I had been working on it alot at this point, mostly details like removing the orange shag carpet from the rear package tray, and the "Keep ON Truckin" floormats. The engine got a fresh coat of white paint (Ha Ha Ha this car's trademark). And I was saving up for my American 200S mags that would appear later that summer. Man that was a great summer, cruising Alki, Renton Loop, Crossroads mall, Colby in Everett, and of course Lake City Way. Those were the days.................

THOR
01-27-2003, 08:51 AM
Welcome to the club and the forum UglyPants Mike,
As long as you're a fan of Pontiacs and GTOs, It does not matter if your pants are really, really ugly or horribly ugly. Look forward to meeting you at the next event :)

uglypants
01-27-2003, 10:02 AM
Hey 1pro , do you still have that GTO? The biggest mistake I made (to this point) was selling my mom's "67 Tempest ( I know,no goat but it was that car that got me into GTO's) about 10 years ago . I can still hear her crying when they drove it away.(it was her first car and she was the original owner). I have tried finding the car but no luck..oh well... :-/

Bruce, my pants today are just kinda ugly and I look forward to meeting you as well!
Mike

MikeS
01-27-2003, 12:35 PM
Mike, welcome to the best damn car club on the planet. Keep your Hemmings subscription up to date. Spring is coming which means selling time for GTO's. Also check out Goat Finder GTO Classifieds (888) GTO-MUSL Are you looking for a project to bring along, or something more complete and finished? Save your pennies and God Speed!

Kevin-D
01-27-2003, 12:59 PM
Hey Uglypants! Welcome to the club from another new member.. I just joined last month!! Best thing I have ever done.. There are so many nice people on in the club who will do nothing but help you any way they can. Hey, talk to "Ugly-Alan" Keep buggin him! He'll sell you the 66 GTO w/ the trips... Its a nice car.. Tell him his "son" sent you!

See you at the next meeting!

uglypants
01-27-2003, 01:24 PM
Mike , Kevin , thanks for the welcome! By all the positive responses I have been getting here , I am glad I joined!

As far as what I am looking for Mike, "64-"67 in reasonable condition,driver or not.I am not looking for TOO major of a project (no frame off) . I dont have any welding skills ( I know,I know..) so I would like something fairly rust-free.( I know that is asking a lot with the years I'm looking for).My only real requirments is that it has to be a 4 sp and a hardtop,everything else is negotiable.I have been saving for a while now and not too anxious to blow it all,but if the right deal passes my way,how can I say no ?

Something like Al's "66 is what im looking for . If there is that one out there,there has to be more,right? When I was looking around a few years back, I found a couple , but not what I was looking for..I wonder it they are still around?Hmmmm....

Kevin-D
01-27-2003, 02:43 PM
Yes they are out there.. I was lucky enough to get the 1966 HT orig. owner car on the other older post. Its a great car.. 4 speed.. untouched... paperwork from day one... Its awesome!! Soon it will have Rally I's back on it.. If you dont have a car before Bend, your welcome to ride with us!

REED_RACING
01-27-2003, 02:51 PM
Who is that standing next to your car Brad? Is it Derk Diggler? ;D

G6T8O
01-27-2003, 03:07 PM
Hey Mike !!!

Another welcome to the site and club ;D... One thing you need to try to do is "GO TO TIGER RUN"... You'll probably meet more club members there than at the club meeting :)
It's one hellova poncho party!! I made it last year for the first time and it was awsome... The cars... The racing.... The racing ;D And the people are all great too!! Well you get the idea....Also you might try stalking GTO_AL ... If you look where he looks, go where he goes, you just might beat him to the punch on that next deal. Well maybe...As i'm sure you've already found out, This site is very addicting, And so are all the character's, From your posts you fit in well !! Again Welcome !!!

Bill P. 8)

Goat_Head
01-27-2003, 03:11 PM
Hey Mike,

You did a good thing by joining a club. And I have to tell you the one you joined is a Grrreat one! I am a member of the Goat Herd out of Portland, but have years of association with the Legends and I am proud to know all of them, they are a fine bunch of people. Make sure they invite you to TIGER RUN 2003 so we can really get your blood boiling.

As far as ugly pants, you obviously haven't met J. P. Ugly pants, ugly legs, man he has it all.

Enjoy your time spent in the Legends, you're going to love it!

Jim

uglypants
01-27-2003, 03:49 PM
Bill, Jim thanks for the welcomes and insight of the club.You are right ,it is addictive!

I hate to sound out of the loop,I have read about the tiger run,but where is it and what's it about? I do dig the racing part,but what else is there??I got onto another Pontiac site earlier where they had video clips w/sound of goats doing big smokey burnouts..A site like that isnt helping out a guy like myself whos got nothing! It just gives me more incentive...

Well its good news, Kevin to see that there are cars out there to be had! Do you have pictures of it posted? I probably have seen it already. Since I found this site i cant keep off it!
and thanks for the offer Kevin,I'll keep it in mind!

(note to mike-follow Al)

Thanks again guys,I am having a great time conversing with all of you!
Mike

1PROGTO
01-27-2003, 03:59 PM
Oh My ......I saw that coming Reedster. Yes I still own the GTO, it was my first car !! man that's 22 years almost and I've put 20,000 miles on her.

GTO_AL
01-27-2003, 05:28 PM
::) Find GTO's I will, YES may the GOAT be with you ;D

Mike I'm going this way and that (follow closely) and I somehow seem to find GTO's or should I say they find me.

I'll keep an eye out for you and we'll find 'The Great One'.

I'm being told about a '67 in the Olympia area at the time as fate has it actually. No info on it yet. The guy that's giving me the info obviously has 1st option, then I'm looking at parts. But should the guy telling me about it not want it and it's too nice to be a parts car, then we'll see what happens. As it stands, I've not seen the car, nor do I know if it's even for sale. More info to follow as I get it.

The guy (Brad) that has told me about the car just bought my extra GTO hoods and him and his brother may be joining the club soon. He's also into '67s

GO 1967 8) (and '64, and '65, and '66 and '68 and so on)

Unknown_Authority
01-27-2003, 05:37 PM
Bill, Jim thanks for the welcomes and insight of the club.You are right ,it is addictive!

I hate to sound out of the loop,I have read about the tiger run,but where is it and what's it about? I do dig the racing part,but what else is there??I got onto another Pontiac site earlier where they had video clips w/sound of goats doing big smokey burnouts..
Mike

It's in Bend,Redmond and Madras Oregon. Memorial day weekend. Big cruise in Bend on friday and saturday night along with a little late night racing. Saturday is the car show in Redmond and Sunday is the drags at Madras. Check out the links page for the Goat Herd web site. All the info is right there. As for big smokey burnouts. This one ain't bad even though the picture isn't that great.

Brandon
01-27-2003, 06:02 PM
Hey Mike, welcome to the club !! ;D

Tiger Run is in Bend, OR. Last year was my first year. I went down on Friday, but a lot of guys go on Thurs, some even earlier! The Fri nite event is at a hamburger drive-in (forget the name). Lots of hot cars and great people. The hours (and cars) will zoom by. There is a huge GTO/Pontiac show on Saturday (but don't follow the sign that says "goat show"!). Sat nite is an awards banquet, and the drag racing is Sunday. There may even be some "unofficial" racing at times ;), esp at night. The events will take a little driving to get to, which is great. You will see GTOs everywhere while you are driving. At night, there is a real PARTY atmosphere - it is like high-school!! Every one you talk to is having a grrreat time and saying that it is the funnest weekend of the year. You will want to stay at the Bend Riverside motel - you will trip out seeing all the hot ponchos in the parking lot! Last year I made my reservations late, so I had to stay at a different place - I felt like I was missing some of the action!

Even if you don't have a GTO, you should still go to Tiger Run.

See you at the next meeting!

-Brandon

uglypants
01-28-2003, 12:23 AM
Well, it sure is sounding like the Tiger run is the place to be!Memorial day weekend,eh?That looks like it should give me enough time to get ready! Thanks for the info guys and thanks for the picture unknown_authority, that was great!
Hey,who is the guy sitting by the back in the lawn chair? I like big smokey burnouts too...but i also like breathing!

Man Al,it really does seem like you have the magic GTO genie riding with you!I am also keeping my eyes out!

Thanks for the welcome unknown and Brandon,Ill see ya at the next meeting!
Mike

canonbkr
01-28-2003, 03:28 PM
Greetings and Welcome Mike,
I am also quite new to the Legends having only joined in November. Don't let Al kid you.... ;) His personal fave is not even mentioned!!! 8) Al, you are so modest. 8) Tell Mike all about your Pinky!!!! Now that is a true example of his "Dedication" to Goats!!!! ;)

Jeff

theJUDGE
01-28-2003, 04:55 PM
YES!
Al's "Pinky" is his treasure that is closest to his heart.
I've seen it with my own eyes, a factory pink 68 LeMans.
Al fails to mention he was awarded the car because he is a high level respresentative for Mary Kay cosmetics. :D

LonnieS
01-28-2003, 05:09 PM
At first I thought this Pink Le Mans was a myth... ;D

canonbkr
01-28-2003, 05:16 PM
Not to sound kornie but your close in saying myth... It is not quite a myth but rather it is a LEGEND!!!! ;D

(your welcome Al)... ;D

Jeff

GTO_AL
01-28-2003, 06:00 PM
Oh, you guys are too much LOL OK OK I'm comming out of the goat barn, you caught me. Here's a pic of the car for anyone that hasn't seen the mythy PINKster. And to think I get to drive it tomorrow rain or shine. To think this car brough me the "WS" HO engine for my '67 HO rag.

Hey Mike, I have a car for you LOL, look below.

Someone please take it off my hands will ya ;)

uglypants
01-28-2003, 11:57 PM
I hate to say it Al. but i'm gonna pass...LOL :o

Thanks for the welcome Jeff!

H.O.Goat
01-29-2003, 05:47 PM
Mr. uglypants welcome from another member I'am the owner of the red 67 H.O. on the picture of the week, I also have another 67 hardtop and a 67 Lemans, so if you decide to go with a 67 I have a little bit of 67 sfuff if ya need something.

And if your hunting for 66/67 stick with Al, he-be the MAN!

Hope to see ya at the meeting.

Patrick. 8)

uglypants
01-29-2003, 11:09 PM
Hey Patrick , thanks for the welcome and nice car!I thought that was a very fitting picture of the week!
Also thanks for letting me know about parts you have that I might need (because I probably will need them!). I was discussing with my wife last night wether I should get a project car or buck up and buy one that is already restored , I am just a little leery about buying something completly done,not knowing exactly waht has and hasnt been done(or hidden).
Has anybody in the club bought a car from out of state and had it delivered here?If so,how did it go?If i a mgoing to buy a completed car,it seems like they are all on the east coast.

(then again,I havent talked to Al yet !! LOL)

Thanks again Patrick andf I hope to meet you at next weeks meeting!
Mike

THOR
01-30-2003, 03:06 AM
Mr. Ugly Pants,
Another source for finding GTOs for sale is in the GTOAA Legend, the magazine of the national GTO association. I rec'd current issue yesterday. In the classifieds section, there are many nice sounding, likely well kept, some #s matching cars.
I didn't see any '64-'67 4 speeds but did see 2 or 3 automatics. Anyway, good source to consider. Good luck in your search, I went through that whole process.

uglypants
01-30-2003, 10:33 AM
Hey Bruce , thanks for the tip! I just applied to the GTOAA this week and I havent seen anything from them yet..but i'm waiting! If anybody else out can reccomend to me places to look outside of the obvious I would appreciate it!

thanks again guys,
Mike

THOR
01-30-2003, 01:34 PM
Hiya Mike,
If you don't have the current issue b4 next club meeting, lemme know and I can bring my issue for you to scope out.

Be sure to wear some really awful and horrible pants so we recognize ya! (maybe sump'n with chevy logos on 'em) ;D

theJUDGE
01-30-2003, 04:46 PM
Hi Mike,

I would recommend a finished GTO or at least a nice driver.
You would immediately be able to enjoy the car.
Plus you can most likely buy a GTO finished cheaper than the entire cost of the restoration, not to mention the headaches associated with body shops & the like.
In my mind, you should be able to find what you are looking for in the Northwest, be it Washington or Oregon, especially with spring around the corner.
As always, part of the benefit of club membership is "we got your back" & if you find a GTO you are serious about, why we can assist you to make sure you don't come home with a bucket.
I would recommend Traderonline.com, go to collector cars, log in your specifics & hit the "NW" for area.
Anyway, remember, the "hunt" is part of the fun & we're here to help! 8)

uglypants
01-30-2003, 11:46 PM
Hi Mark,

Thanks for the advice.Actually that was one of the reasons why I did join the club.I was hoping you guys would steer me in the right direction when I did find a car . I am thinking a "semi" project car would be good for me. Something that drives,a fairly straight rust-free body . I am liking the idea of buying a completed car less and less.I do like the idea that I had something to do with bringing the car back to its original glory,not just being the guy with the wallet.I do agree that buying a finished car would be cheaper , but by buying something that needs a little work gives me the opportunity to teach my Daughter about cars.Since she is only 10 months old , a project would give me the time to show her and eventually put me in the market for another GTO for her when she's ready!
Thank you Mark and everybody else who has taken the time to help me with my"Goat Quest"!
Mike

MikeS
02-01-2003, 08:07 AM
Man a three page thread! This has to be a first! What an impact you've maid, newby! Mark is right, if you find something that peaks your interest, let us know and we'll go with you to check it out. There are a lot of very knowledbeable GTO folks in our club that would be glad to help out a fellow club member. The eventual seller of your GTO won't know what hit 'em. Happy hunting.

uglypants
02-01-2003, 09:09 AM
Hey Mike ,I seem to make an impression on somebody wherever I go ,good or bad! :o
Thanks for putting the offer on the table to check out some goat's with me.I will and do appreciate it!
Hopefully soon I will be able to take you guys up on your offers and I'll have one in my garage!
Thanks again!

G6T8O
02-05-2003, 02:05 AM
Hey Mike !!
I'm currently plumbing A house in the Renton Skyway Area, when I did the ground works A few months ago I noticed A 1966 GTO sitting at A shell station. I figured it belonged to one of the employee's or the or the station owner. Last friday I was having a particularly bad FORD Morning and had to make several to to the parts store. One trip I met A mech. from that shell station and I asked about the Goat. He said it belonged to Muscle cars NW. in Renton and he was waiting for some parts (still). So I looked around for the outfit but I couldn't find it. I stopped in at Honest Performance talked to *Blake (a club member) he called the outfit and talked to Bob found out a car was a 389 tripower four speed car with lots of options and for sale. you can call bob at 425-228-1600 Ive looked at the car the body is pretty straight and the interier is pretty clean it needs paint, interier is black with buckets no console wood wheel and wood shift nob wheels are rally ones. Bob said that this was a numbers matching car. I didnt go over this with a fine tooth comb never popped the hood. When I found out it was for sale "ugly pants" came to mind. So here you go. If your interested give Bob a call. Price is said to be in the teens but neg.

Bill P. *8)

theJUDGE
02-05-2003, 03:29 PM
Hey Bill,
good catch, I saw that 66 GTO at the same Shell station back in November.
It was a light teal-minty color kinda like Linden Green.
I saw the mechanic taking it for a test drive & then they put it back on the lift.
I was going to check it out but I was late where I was going.

Looked like a clean GTO, & NO GTO_AL, you can't have directions to the place. ;)

G6T8O
02-05-2003, 03:43 PM
Yea Mark ...

Thats the one.. It is pretty clean, but it does need a few parts. They said their going to restore it and sell it for more bucks. On their website "Musclecarsnw" they have some very nice cars.. Blake said they sell to japan alot... I hope this one stays here!!

Bill P. 8)

GTO_AL
02-05-2003, 03:44 PM
LOL,, ahhhh, why not Mark? Actually, I got my '66 prize :-) And I'm currently looking into a '67 car that I've already told uglypants about ;)

G6T8O
02-05-2003, 03:59 PM
There's always room for one more GTO !!!

Bill P. 8)

REED_RACING
02-05-2003, 04:07 PM
Been there, done that. Too many cars, too many problems.

uglypants
02-06-2003, 03:52 AM
Hey Bill,thanks for keeping an eye out for me,I appreciate it!The price right now for me is a little to high.I am liking the price range of the 67 Al found a little better,so if somebody else is interested in the '66,go for it!

Like I said,I do appreciate everybody keeping me in mind when looking at cars.

Thanks for everything guys,

GTO_AL
02-06-2003, 08:37 AM
Mike, here is a few pics of the car. $6K

GTO_AL
02-06-2003, 08:38 AM
and another

GTO_AL
02-06-2003, 08:40 AM
interior

GTO_AL
02-06-2003, 08:40 AM
rear

GTO_AL
02-06-2003, 08:44 AM
and engine,
The car is for sale, not by me, but I can direct anyone to it. If nobody wants it in the club, then I'll buy it and .. well, have another ;D

Icelander
02-06-2003, 09:17 AM
Ugh! Torture! I'd love to have a running car! :-/

LonnieS
02-06-2003, 12:53 PM
Hang in there Kendall! ;) The grass is always greener... Some day I hope to have a car at all ;) It will be great when your car is finished - as much as any car is truly "finished".

THOR
02-07-2003, 04:10 AM
Hi Kendall,
Like me, you may be suffering from LOPS, lack-o-pontiac syndrome. I need a fix and badly!!
I must see, hear, and/or drive some Pontiacs soon or my condition may worsen. I also miss the sweet perfume of tire smoke. Guys like Al apparently are afflicted as well, even with more Pontiacs on hand than you can count on one hand. We need some sort of cure and pronto !! ;D

Icelander
02-07-2003, 08:58 AM
Maybe we need to change the name of the club to "Northwest Legends Pontiac Support Group". ::)

THOR
02-07-2003, 01:38 PM
Haha! I like that one. Seeing some GTOs at the meeting will help with the pain we suffer. Hope to See ya there Kendall !

theJUDGE
02-07-2003, 02:32 PM
Wow that is one helluva deal for that 1967 GTO, you guys ain't gonna find a cleaner one for the price. :o

So is anyone going to buy it, or do I need to??????

I'll take that column shift & 2 barrel cause she ain't gonna look like that when I'm done ;D

Let me know dudes.

GTO_AL
02-07-2003, 03:26 PM
Mark,
That car is up for grabs. Though if nobody grabs it, I'm gonna and do sumpin wit it. Anyone interested let me know and we'll get you in touch with the owner.
The car does have an amatuer paint job on it but the trunk and interior shows no or very little rust. THe car was an eastern Wa. car. THe front fenders show the same for rust however they have been played with. there is bondo in the front parts closer to the lights. The passengers side front fender is off a LeMans/Tempest as it's got the 326 emblem holes in the fender. THe head liner needs replaced, and the vinyl top is a bit loose around the edges. The car runs seemingly strong but needs exhaust. Power steering but no power brakes. The part on the carb that holds the bolt that holds the aircleaner is broken off but then a 4 bble would be better installed anyway. I've drove the car and know the sellers nephew and if anyone would like to see the car let me know.